wwricht ([info]wwricht) wrote in [info]whitewolf_lj,

Rich's Reasonings #7

Hi Everybody!

So, we arrive at Indices. Indexes. (I get so few opportunities to use my x key that I'm going with the x). First off, let me agree with those of you who think that by and large our indexes suck. I agree. I don't think that about every index that we've ever made, particularly from the arrival of the WoD Core Rulebook onward, but most of the ones we did weren't that good, and many books that needed them didn't get one. Even a crappy one. Which is a half-full/half-empty situation. ; )

Just like with the editing issues, let's take a historical look at why this is the case. In the beginning we had a threefold problem with indexes. First, we were making books that pushed the boundaries into "Art". Works of art first, text-books second. So the index was seen as an ugly reminder of the "old ways". And hey, while I certainly can't point at any one element as the one that "worked" to power our success story, we did after all (somehow) succeed with that mind-set. Second, we printed books with a much smaller page count back then. 72 pages was a popular size, and books of that length simply didn't have the text density to support an index- or at least the intensive work that creating a good index requires...which brings us to: Third, the software we were using for desk-top publishing was crude by today's standards. Indexing required an intensive amount of work on the part of the developer, editor and layout artist at the last stage of the publication procedure- right when the deadline was crunching and in many cases after it was missed- as it had to be created after the book was totally laid out in order to match page numbers to entries. Some books needed indexes but we ran out of time, some weren't made because we ran out of pages and couldn't afford to raise the page count, and some weren't made or made well because the developer was simply exhausted.

So over the years there was an ingrained resistance and it really came down to individual developers and the kind of effort they were willing or able to shoulder. And with the communication resources we had, it was easy to believe that other than a few "index-fetishers", our fan-base wasn't all that into indexes either. As one of the guys most involved with our Sword & Sorcery brand during the d20 explosion, I received an excellent education on how other companies did their indexes- particularly our friends at Malhavoc. Sue Cook (the real reason for Monte's success) is an angel of editing and was able to explain how TSR and then WOTC  developed their procedures and how important they felt indexes were. Even though I wasn't Creative Director at the time, I tried to bring that information to our design team when we were putting together the new WoD- in particular the Core Rulebook- and I think that our track record with indexes in the new WoD is altogether better than previously. It is still spotty though: the same economic necessities I talked about with editing and errata were a factor in these last few years and our developers were even more over-worked than before. So what gains we made weren't as fully realized as we'd have liked. The fact that our current efforts are improving is really something I hope people will realize at some point, although I certainly understand the knee-jerk "WW Indexes Suck" attitude that many people have after the years of yuck.

It's my plan to have a more forgiving schedule so that the developers have time to devote to a proper index without having to "slam it in" and that we can sit down and identify which books need indexing and have that built into their schedule. We have in no way backed off from the idea that game-books can strive to be exciting works of Art- as our 2008 books will illustrate (literally)- and putting in a quality index doesn't automatically ruin the artistic statement.

So next week (which may come out early or late, but not on Friday because I'll be at the EVE Fan Fest in Iceland giving out live-action missions ): I need a topic. Ask me some questions and I'll see which ones I can make a post out of-

Thanks-

--richt

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[info]sorceror

October 26 2007, 22:15:05 UTC 4 years ago


I agree, the main WoD rulebook's index is entirely decent, and a welcome departure from previous practices.

I also applaud the new approach. Making indexes does suck, I know; I really feel your pain on that one. BUT... it really is necessary. So please, stay strong on this point!

[info]wwricht

October 28 2007, 21:27:33 UTC 4 years ago

Thanks- we will.

--richt

[info]matt_m_mcelroy

October 26 2007, 22:45:41 UTC 4 years ago

Topic ideas for next week:

Playtesting - (How much is "in-house" vs. members of the Camarilla? What kinds of playtesting is WW looking for?)

Art Direction - (When does art enter into the product's development schedule? How are artists chosen for a project?)

Conventions - (Which are WW favorite conventions? What are some of the more memorable conventions for WW?)

Just a few ideas...

Anonymous

October 27 2007, 04:25:09 UTC 4 years ago

I would also like to here about playtesting.

[info]dawngreeter

October 28 2007, 01:02:37 UTC 4 years ago

I vote playtesting as well. I also propose expanding the topic to cover a more general process of coming up with new or evaluating submitted ideas for games. You know, the whole process of finding a good idea and turning it into a good game, the White Wolf way. For example, I remember Monday Meetings mentioning a number of times how Murder City was shaping from an idea into a full-fledged game and I think it might be something interesting to read about.

Though admittedly, what I'm asking for here is a lot like: "Tell me how the magic happens!"

[info]wwricht

4 years ago

Anonymous

4 years ago

Anonymous

4 years ago

[info]mindstalk

3 years ago

[info]etherlad

October 27 2007, 00:13:22 UTC 4 years ago

As I mentioned last time, I miss the more whimsical index entries like "pants?" in the Werewolf PG (pointing to the Nuwisha entry) and "Soylent Green is People" in the Guide to the Traditions (pointing to an art piece with "Soylens Vriridis Homines Es" as graffiti).

Still don't know what was up with the "Dolphin Mage" listed in Werewolf 2nd, IIRC, which just pointed right back to the index.

[info]dragonladyflame

October 27 2007, 03:32:33 UTC 4 years ago

Man, when I was an intern I put all kinds of that stuff into my Exalted 2 index and it got cut for space. I should forward this comment to Brian G. :grin:

psst, Rich ... hand off the indices to the interns!

[info]eddyfate

October 27 2007, 15:27:14 UTC 4 years ago

There is one in MET Awakening as well. :)

[info]jasondemotte

October 27 2007, 00:17:32 UTC 4 years ago

I wrote the downloadable index for Dark Ages: Mage. While it was kinda cool, I doubt anyone would confuse it as being done by a professional, and from what I understand, I had an advantage because I had the entire finished product in front of me. It has to be done at the end of the project, the end is in sight but you have to pour over the book and hope that you catch everything.

While I've never gave White Wolf a hard time over their indexes, I do appreciate them a lot more after that.

[info]wwricht

October 28 2007, 21:41:53 UTC 4 years ago

Thanks for the empathy. To go all esoteric on you: Musashi gave up being a swordsman in his later years and studied how crafters and artisans and tradesmen did what they did because he felt that in order to understand what they did, he needed to do what they did. There's a lot of truth there-

Thanks-

--richt

[info]herr_ziffer

October 27 2007, 01:02:01 UTC 4 years ago

Topics

Rich,

You posted a bit about how your publishing software affected your ability to write good indexes in the past.

I was wondering how else technology has affected how you work and what you are able to do. Do you and your writers browse the Internet for fresh ideas? Does technology change the way role-playing games are developed, or are rpg's an island which the technology just washes around?

Finally (the big question) are online rpg's moving in on the traditional pencil-and-paper rpgs, or do they simply serve different purposes, and perhaps different audiences?

[info]wwricht

October 28 2007, 22:15:15 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Topics

Those are great questions and very much to the point of what we do with RPGs. Obviously, just doing an LJ like this wasn't possible when we started out and you might have noticed that I touched on the way fan opinion and concerns are available in an instantaneous way now in earlier posts. PDF technology and that kind of Alternative Publishing (alternative to the ink on paper big books we have been doing) is something we are finally able to use in ways that we hope will enhance the fun our fans get out of our books.

For example, adventures of any kind have traditionally been some of our poorest sellers (potentially because only the Storyteller tends to buy them) and so we haven't done many of them over the years. A couple of years ago it occurred to me that this was a problem in the indoctrination of new gamers to our games as it was a stumbling block for new Storytellers and players to have to immediately create their Chronicles from whole-cloth. Yet we really couldn't afford to put out adventures and essentially lose money on them hoping I was right and we'd be building an audience for the other books. Plus, because of the nature of our games and because we did an adventure so rarely, when we did do one there were some real highs and lows. We didn't have an easy model for adventures unlike the old dungeon delving modules of the ol' days. After much thought it seemed to me that a system that emphasized the storytelling aspect of our games by breaking the adventure into scenes rather than locations just like in scripts made sense and that PDFs would be a low cost way to get that material out there. Thus the SAS (Storyteller Adventure System)was born. Will Hindmarch started the real creation of the SASs and now Eddy Webb will be doing even more with them- check them out!

As for online gaming vs paper- that's a topic truly for another day, but I can say that the MMOs have dealt a real body-blow to paper RPGing these last few years. They are what TV was to radio- and paper RPGs are radio. And just like radio, in order to survive and even thrive, we need to examine and emphasize those things that paper RPGs do and are that online gaming isn't and can't do. Books are beautiful and wonderful and provide a tactile and constant presence that no online game can provide. (And MMOs have a shared world experience, and consistent and exciting visuals and music that paper doesn't provide either). It seems like a paper RPG publishing trend to think that there's a hybrid way to combine the two, but I'm not sure that that's a viable answer. But that might just be me-

Thanks-

--richt

Anonymous

4 years ago

[info]darkor13

October 27 2007, 01:56:00 UTC 4 years ago

Good to know. It can get kind of a pain when you search for something and you can't find it (even using the index) but I get over it! ^^

As for the next topic, what about developing? How do you choose what idea will stay and which will go?
Or maybe how many of you guys just work on a single title (like WoD core book) and how do you make it all fit together?

Maybe it's my developer side speaking, because while developing my RPG, I do it alone and find it hard to see how you can manage to work it out.

[info]wwricht

October 28 2007, 22:16:48 UTC 4 years ago

Read up above and my answer about posting about the group development process- seems like a good one for later-

Thanks-

--richt

[info]draxar

October 27 2007, 02:35:16 UTC 4 years ago

On the bright side, you do put in some fun jokes into the index pages.

[info]uncacreamy

October 27 2007, 02:47:18 UTC 4 years ago

Wow, it's very interesting to hear the reasoning behind all the index foo in the past. Seriously, in a roleplaying game, nothing gets looked at in a book -more- than the index. I've lost count of the times in the older game, we got angry over the lack of index and wasted game time trying to find something.

Thank you for the indexes that you've got in the new game.

[info]emprint

October 28 2007, 09:37:03 UTC 4 years ago

"Seriously, in a roleplaying game, nothing gets looked at in a book -more- than the index."

I'm in favor of the general changes Rich is driving with indices (especially for our more textbooky products), but I have to say that I didn't use them much at all until I started writing for White Wolf. Now that I have to play ball with 4+ books at once... well, that nudges me towards the index.

[info]mirv120

October 27 2007, 15:47:10 UTC 4 years ago

I'd be curious to see how much play-testing happens for new products as well and what your procedures are for running play-tests and so forth!

[info]belegwen

October 27 2007, 20:03:34 UTC 4 years ago

Commentary from a gaming library student

Don't take this the wrong way, but there are advantages to working with a professional indexer. I took a class on indexing and a lot more goes into indexing than someone who isn't trained specifically in indexing can really handle. It's part of the domain of information science, which is a completely different area from normal publishing and book design. A professional indexer is trained to understand how people look for information (like where a specific rule is located) and knows how to organize the index to account for that. I love White Wolf books and games, but even in the newer editions I usually have trouble with the index. I usually end up looking for information by flipping through multiple times or trying to memorize the information on an initial read-through. But you shouldn't have to study to play a game! (Well, maybe if it's D&D ;-)). You should be able to find what you need quickly and easily, and that's what a well-written index can do.

Sorry for the soapboxing there. Indexing is a favorite subject of mine, and it's an area I'm interested in breaking into one day, after I've finished the MLIS. Good luck with the future indexes however you decide to do them.

[info]wwricht

October 28 2007, 22:20:14 UTC 4 years ago

Re: Commentary from a gaming library student

I agree about the qualities of a professional, fully trained indexer. This is a person who would take indexes to a totally different plateau and one I'd love to see us reach someday. Right now though, I'd be satisfied to get to the point where we consistently hit a passable and useful quality level and then we can see if we can scale those heights.

Thanks-

--richt

[info]bazzalisk

October 27 2007, 23:57:42 UTC 4 years ago

How about title misprints on covers? :)

Damn, this is probably the first time I've ever owned a book with a misprinted title and it's hilarious.

(Good book, though)

(The Books of Sorcery, Vol. IV: The Roll of Glorious Divininty I)

[info]wwricht

October 28 2007, 22:24:43 UTC 4 years ago

Watch me hit myself in the head.

Good example though of the difference between editing errors and layout errors. This mistake happened when the logo for the book was made- hence it appears inside anytime that logo graphic is used in b&w- and was so pernicious that it slipped past the designer, the developer, the matt, and myself. It slipped past the printer as well, and they're great about catching odd things like that. It was a fuck-up. It happens on occasion, just not usually when I'm posting about editing errors. Doh!

Thanks-

--richt

[info]herr_ziffer

October 29 2007, 18:45:33 UTC 4 years ago

misprints

This is a bit esoteric, and perhaps off-topic, but when Northwestern University Press translated and published Merleau-Ponty's "Phenomenology of Perception" (which was and still is a really a big deal in Continental philosophy) they, for whatever reason, printed Phenomonlogy of Perception in big block letter on the cover. That misprint went through the hands of many academics at top universities and still got through, leaving would-be philosophy students scratching their heads ever since.

Anonymous

October 30 2007, 22:08:33 UTC 4 years ago

When returning from Iceland, you can discuss the pjorn?

Anonymous Canadian.

[info]wwricht

October 31 2007, 11:47:28 UTC 4 years ago

Certainly, you crazy lurker type, back bacon eating, guys, eh.

And I'll get you some pee-shark, too.

Thanks-

--richt
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